[Vana_B]

I have been experimenting with NBE for quite a number of years,   I have always been a big/strong guy and have been able to maintain a good percentage of my male strength and endurance with lifting hard and cycling on and off NBE.   Typically 2-3 months on, followed by a few weeks off has been working well for me.   Over the years,  have grown modest/obvious boobs and significant amount of fat movement. My original goal was to make my man boobs look more feminine. 

In the past month,  have been using a relative low dose of DYI topical estradiol cream rubbed on my inner thighs along with oral Reshi / Peony to help lower my T levels.    I am really liking the effects and will probably push myself a little further than I have with herbs.  My boobs are already feeling heavy, nipples have already become slightly puffy/erect and incredibly sensitive, and my skin and body hair noticeably softer.  

I haven't noticed much strength loss (yet),  but have noticed far more body aches after working out, especially my  lower back.   Even at 60, I'm still a competitive bicycler and would like to feminize as much as possible, yet still remain competitive in organized events ( and the also satisfy my wife ) .  I already felt like I was walking a thin line just herbs and taking breaks.  

To those that have switched from herbs to a low dosage of real estrogen,  is the muscle / endurance loss accelerated by a great degree?   With herbs, it seems as soon as I took a break I could feel my T-levels surge within a week and always waking up hard and strength quickly returning.   Do you get the same type of rebound when taking a break from estrogen?

Any experiences or advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Shirazmn]

Hi
I have taken PM for years, usually 2000mg/day, which is high in general but "OK" for breast growth in a 90Kg male. I too took breaks to keep the wife happy and I too experienced fatigue.
I am not doing any sport but I do walk a lot and I am fairly active in general, and I can conform that PM was giving me cramps and made any recovery longer and harder. I got sick more often than usual and it would take me longer to get back to full health. I am not sure of what causes this in PM, but I know that many other males have noticed these side effects, particularly at higher-than-usual dosage. When I had my T tested after several months on PM, my T was really high. I expected it to drop because of the phytoestrogen in my body, but it did the opposite. At that point I threw away all my remaining PM and I bought Progynova (estradiol valerate) from inhouse. 
I started taking Progynova 2mg a day orally which is the regular dosage for a woman (progynova is contraception for women and also HRT for women in menopause) and it did nothing for me. It didn't even give me the soft skin that I usually get from PM.
I then upped to 2mg twice a day, total of 4mg, and things started moving a bit. The dosage is high for a woman but low for feminization or for transitioning (I have read that trans women get about 8 mg/day orally if they can't do injections or gel). I did not get cramps and I did not get the sense of weakness that I got from PM. The basic effects of estrogen came back quickly: softer skin, thicker hair, I was more emotional but generally calmer, and better orgasms. After 3 months I still had to take a break to keep the wife happy, and it took about 3 weeks to get back to full stamina. (Sex drive was very low to the point that I lost interest even in DIY...). During these 3 months I have seen slight progress. I gained a bit of fullness (I have a wide chest a spread-apart boobs, so it's not obvious when they grow). My bras are fuller for sure. 

Bottom line: I got used to associate physical discomfort with growth on PM: I thought that the weaker I felt the faster the changes would be because I thought that it was an effect of lowered T. I was probably wrong. Taking actual E made me feel generally better and didn't give me a lack of energy. So I definitely prefer the E way. 

Keep in mind that oral E without any anti-androgen is by far the slowest way to grow breasts. Whenever you start, or restart, your body will use the first few weeks to lower your T while the E does more or less nothing to grow you some boobs. While on PM I could feel a "turbo restart effect" with swollen boobs within a week from restarting, things on 4mg of E seem to be slower, or milder, I am not sure. I have read many accounts of people doing E injections (still monotherapy, meaning without anti-androgen) and they seem to have much faster breast development than on oral E. Gel seems to be very effective too. I tried it i the past but I only had one bottle because it's very expensive and I think I under-dosed it massively so it did little for me, but I see people having good results from it.

[Heaven's Night]

The effect of PM does not compare to decently good conventional HRT much because it can't. The efficiency on which is works is mininal in comparison. However, the testosterone spike while starting and after a stop is a real possibility but I presume again that PM or phytoestrogen is unable to cause anything as what conventional HRT does.

The difference of bioidentical hormones and plant based estrogen mimics is worlds apart. 

2-4mg oral estradiol is typical for menopause treatment. Trans women usually get 4-8mg per day but almost everybody prefers better method as oral E2 is likely the least efficient of the most typical methods.

Patches absolutely suck for achieving suitable levels but they're extremely stable. Pills orally have terrible metabolic rate and likely highest blood clotting risk which transdermal and injected estrogens avoid completely. Gel sucks for achieving good levels and often needs quite high doses and constant application. Buccal and sublingual pills offer better metabolism, higher levels but still not good. Lower blood clotting risk

Injection is the gold standard for a reason. I would contradict the attached info sheet on the efficiency of subcutaneous injection, deep cubcutaneous is insanely effective and offers more stable levels than IM does. Also on the sheet the dosage ranges are just wild for all injections. Its very rare for anyone to need more than 10mg EV per week. I would say that a good average would be 5-10mg or so, YMMV.

One thing about breast development while on injections, many trans women absolutely stall when they switch from patches/pills/gel to injection, a lot of them stall when they switch from EV to EEn or EC. There might be a genetic reason for it. Read about it on Dr.Powers' Reddit just some days back. I know that guy is controversial as can be but he has interesting theories on a lot of stuff and one of the few willing to look into new ideas on feminising HRT.



Anyway, what comes to maintaining strength while growing boobs... Simple answer is, you can't, not without some loss. Or if you're doing it so ineffienctly there's no muscle loss, you wont get any boobs. Stop and go method might work to an extent, but its more than likely that some kind of loss will occur. Also depends on what you're trying to achieve. Full body feminisation will not happen without any muscle loss because it can't. Our bodies aren't made to function like that. Its about a balance which flips to either direction enough to cause body changes. I say it again, to whom ever is highly concerned about being so fully presumed male by body functions should not play around feminising hormone treatments. At all. And anyone who does should be willing to compromise, likely compromising both physical perfomance and body changes to some extent. Because if you want it all, there's no way to maintain the muscle mass and or low body fat, or full on function downtown. 

I would guess that 6/6 month cycle might be ideal? Or doing additional workout while on NBE/HRT? Then again, latter possibly makes you lose body fat which means less boobs and less every possible shape you might want. 

Here's a useful info sheet comparison of HRT methods. I think its a bit out of date, but mostly correct. Good for quick reference when considering different admin methods and medications. Note that "relative feminisation effeciency" is exactly opposed of the "staying male" part about physical performance, further down that path you go, more you have to work for maintaining your physique if that's what you're aiming at.

   

[Vana_B]

The basic effects of estrogen came back quickly: softer skin, thicker hair, I was more emotional but generally calmer, and better orgasms. After 3 months I still had to take a break to keep the wife happy, and it took about 3 weeks to get back to full stamina. (Sex drive was very low to the point that I lost interest even in DIY...). During these 3 months I have seen slight progress. I gained a bit of fullness (I have a wide chest a spread-apart boobs, so it's not obvious when they grow). My bras are fuller for sure. 

It's good to hear you were able to gain a bit before cycling off, and things the male parts came back fairly quickly.      I'm about a month in on real E,  and in a completely euphoric state right now.   On E right now, just touching my own boobs and nipples is the most erotic thing I have ever experienced.  My biggest turn on is thinking about being a woman during sex. 

When I cycle on to NBE, it's a huge turn on, feeling like I am doing something "naughty".   What could be naughtier than growing boobs and womanly nipples (for all to see), just in the name of sexual gratification?   ( that sounds crazy just typing it )  

I plan on going until it starts causing issues with the wife. She is a good sport and learned that my nips/chest are a very good way to get things going, and sometimes can take me to a hands free O.   Once that stops working... it's will be back to male mode until things start working again.

[Vana_B]

I say it again, to whom ever is highly concerned about being so fully presumed male by body functions should not play around feminising hormone treatments. At all. And anyone who does should be willing to compromise, likely compromising both physical perfomance and body changes to some extent. Because if you want it all, there's no way to maintain the muscle mass and or low body fat, or full on function downtown. 

Thank you for the very good advise and method chart.  I would guess my DIY method would be similar to a low dose patch or gel, which would be far more effective than the PM I was using.    It's only been a month, but I am liking it better already.  I understand fully it will eventually cause performance issues,  but hopefully recover by taking breaks.   I'm old and not looking to have any more kids or anything.    

I have already lost a lot of my muscular / vein popping bulkiness, and already retain more fat in my chest, hips and butt than anywhere else now ( 60 yrs old + 5 yrs of PM & Herbs ).   I don't expect to look ripped, just a try to remain a big somewhat muscular guy,  with some killer curves.    Functional strength and mobility are more important than benching 500lbs.   I guess my ideal a body type similar to Dani Speegle.    lol

[AliceDydro]

just touching my own boobs and nipples is the most erotic thing I have ever experienced.  My biggest turn on is thinking about being a woman during sex. 

When I cycle on to NBE, it's a huge turn on, feeling like I am doing something "naughty".   What could be naughtier than growing boobs and womanly nipples (for all to see), just in the name of sexual gratification?   ( that sounds crazy just typing it )

Same here.

My experience has been with short term use, maybe a patch for a few days, RR. I found that gave growth without hurting my strength too much. Usually takes 2-3 days after Progesterone cream use to have good DHT feeling again.

[tomi66]

Hi Vana,
I have been using NBE (BO) 2 years, and switched to Estradiol for the past 18 months.

For me BO knocked everything down, my strength, libido and stamina went down and my weight was really difficult to control, and that's hitting the gym daily with strength training 2 to 3 times a week and cardio daily.

Since being on Estradiol, oral for a year and the patches for 6 months, my stamina has increased back to pre NBE, my strength is back and my weight is under control, I have actually lost 50 lbs and kept it off. I can run 6 miles a day with ease again and my muscles are toned up.

The best part, my body is taking on a feminine shape with some noticeable fat distribution, my breasts are more feminine. I went down 1 cup sizes and down from a 40/42 band to a 36/38 band. My libido is a little better and my eroginous zones have changed a little but cialis is still needed. Overall I am happy with estradiol patches.

[shyzen]

[quote pid="246093" dateline="1777411645"]
just touching my own boobs and nipples is the most erotic thing I have ever experienced.  My biggest turn on is thinking about being a woman during sex
[/quote]

Hi Everyone, this is my first post here, reading this description from Vana is exactly what I am going through at the moment. My  breasts are just giving me the most serious erotic/orgasmic feelings like I have never felt before, I have always been into nipple play and inner orgasm techniques but this is on another level, the problem is I have to lose weight due to diabetes and really gutted that my boobs will probably disappear as I am assuming they are just fat and not real breast tissue

I am not really doing any herbal stuff apart from topical red clover after pumping. I have been pumping about 3 weeks, nothing extreme but my breasts seem to be changing physically a little and most definitely changing erotically.