[Shirazmn]

If someone is posting in good faith, I try to give them a benefit of a doubt. For all I know, the person might have had zero real-life interactions with a trans person and is practically clueless about offensive terminology for trans people. I think the difference between a troll/bigot and someone who is not, is the latter is open-minded enough to amend their ways and try not to hurt others (again). Trolls/bigots on the other hand, double-down and will never apologize or change.

This!

[Heaven's Night]

As an educated answer to the post that inspired starting this thread, here's an article to read for everybody here. Especially the sex change denying, transphobic, genital obsessed bigots who love to argue by terms of "science" and "biology", often without understanding of said biology or the science of sex transitions.

This is also an interesting read when pondering upon if trans women should be always recognised by terms which inherintly make them "biologically male", which is categorially a wrong approach, excluding details like a prostate exams for older trans women. That was, by the way, extremely stupid strawman argument for mis- and degendering trans women and using male terms to describe them, such details are a matter of medical professionals and their patients, not crossdressing cis sex randos on this forum. Having a prostate is irrelevant for discussing breast development, irrelevant for discussing medical sex transition and so on. Its s strawman argument which falls on its face quickly. Its another of biological "but what abouts" genital obsessed bigots love to use for invalidation of non cis sex identities.

Also, something to consider is the cluster model of sex, or a spectrum of sex as its obviously, proven to not be as simple as ones and zeros, bananas and tacos. The binary thinking of human bodies is massively outdated, oversimplified and simply not true. To claim otherwise is willful ignorance, which obviously isn't in short supply.  

I was accused of "attacking", "escalation", so this is the educated, civilised, well thought answer to the bullshit that pissed the hell out of me. Reading and learning are antidote of ignorance. Broading of horizons is another, getting to know different kinds of people is antidote to ignorance. Sheer stupidity cannot be cured, a lot of genital obsessed bigots are beyond redemption. Most people, i want to believe, are not. So here a fucking thought out goddamn smart effin educated reply to that post.

Sex transition is a reality. Sex characteristics are a spectrum. Not single sex characteristic defines a woman, or a man, or anybody. It is a fact. Using myself as an example, I tick boxes on female typical sex characteristics to a massive extent, more so than I do for male ones. And given more time, nearly all my sex characteristics will be female typical. However, a lot have been achieved by using exogneous intervention to hack my body into producing said characteristics... So are exogenously made characteristics "real" or "biological" when its my body's natural functions that cause such characteristics to develop? Why would any of exogenously caused sex characteristics be any less than endogenous ones because they're literally exactly the same when body itself produces them with correct stimuli? 

This is a medical scientific fact of human biology. It is well understood and undeniable. Trying to use biology and science as a crutch to invalidate trans and intersex existence is futile, its fucking stupid and ignorant of facts.

Sex transition is a reality. Sex characteristics are a spectrum. Its a fact.

Trans_women_are_female.pdf Size: 215.09 KB  Downloads: 18

[prostatenipple]

As an educated answer to the post that inspired starting this thread, here's an article to read for everybody here. Especially the sex change denying, transphobic, genital obsessed bigots who love to argue by terms of "science" and "biology", often without understanding of said biology or the science of sex transitions.

Sex transition is a reality. Sex characteristics are a spectrum. Its a fact.

I happen to be one of the people that had disagreed with you in the past.

However I want to say that I deeply appreciate your post and replies on this thread.

I don't have a lot of time today, but I really do want to properly read what you have written here. Please be assured that even with any differences we may have had, we are both pro-trans, and I am an ally.

Well written posts, Heaven's Night. Thank you for doing this. 

[Heaven's Night]

Disagreements are fine, however, the topics discussed in this thread are not a matter of opinion, that's why I try to dig up stuff from people who have said it all better than I ever could. I'm sick of being accused of what ever attacking, fighting, escalating when its about trans and intersex existence and our right to correct treatment. Its truly a hill I'm ready to die upon if I have to and BN is not free of ignorance and transphobia.

The above essay is really good one, just takes a while to dig through. Its really well thought out writing which puts in question the way "gender critical" people try to argue us out of existence... Which invariably falls on its face as biological invalidation doesn't work without leaving a lot of people sexless. 

You welcome, I feel this one of the things that someone has to do.

EDIT:
This thread couldn't be more timely, I see that the gaslighting and misgendering continues. Its so fucking tired to have some idiot cis hetero man misgendering me. Not even in an inventive way. Loser.

[Manue]

Disagreements are fine, however, the topics discussed in this thread are not a matter of opinion, that's why I try to dig up stuff from people who have said it all better than I ever could. I'm sick of being accused of what ever attacking, fighting, escalating when its about trans and intersex existence and our right to correct treatment. Its truly a hill I'm ready to die upon if I have to and BN is not free of ignorance and transphobia.

The above essay is really good one, just takes a while to dig through. Its really well thought out writing which puts in question the way "gender critical" people try to argue us out of existence... Which invariably falls on its face as biological invalidation doesn't work without leaving a lot of people sexless. 

You welcome, I feel this one of the things that someone has to do.

EDIT:
This thread couldn't be more timely, I see that the gaslighting and misgendering continues. Its so fucking tired to have some idiot cis hetero man misgendering me. Not even in an inventive way. Loser.

HN, since this is a “safe space” thread and you’re calling out misgendering, it’s relevant to mention history: you previously misgendered me and then banned me from your Discord server after a disagreement, right after you asked me a question.

So seeing you echo the “mansplaining” framing (as raised earlier) while ignoring your own behavior comes off as selective accountability, not principled advocacy.

If it comes up: my position on broader definitions hasn’t changed, but that’s separate from the point here, which is consistent standards.

[Heaven's Night]

I don't remember things that happened on Discord years ago and I don't care to remember either, but thanks for the reminder... I'm not a shining beacon of perfection and I must have been really pissed off about something to misgender you. 

You found dirt on me. I'm a horrible pot for calling kettle black. It must be a moment which absolutely condemns me forever. 

EDIT:
Manue btw, why are you trying to make this personal? Why are you trying to make me look bad? Some old grudge from Discord from several years ago? If this thread gets personal, I'm going to stop posting, ask Eve to lock the thread and cocentrate on other topics or do something else entirely. I will not go into some ridiculously naive schoolyard bulluying scenario where people start to dig details and old stuff to make things personal, or start name calling or what ever.... I don't have energy or time for that. I rather do some boring ass adult shit than go into flame wars with asshats.

[prostatenipple]

I don't remember things that happened on Discord years ago and I don't care to remember either, but thanks for the reminder... I'm not a shining beacon of perfection and I must have been really pissed off about something to misgender you. 

You found dirt on me. I'm a horrible pot for calling kettle black. It must be a moment which absolutely condemns me forever. 

Sorry but this just rubs me the wrong way. And we as a community must protect each other.

Instead of apologising to Manue, you deflect and diminish their hurtful experience. I've seen you do this before. It's toxic behaviour.

Why is it so hard to apologise and try to build bridges?

[Shirazmn]

Hi @HT
I hope you feel better after vomiting all that bile and after calling me a bigot.

I quickly scanned through the pdf you attached, and the last few sentences in the last page caught my attention:
"Matilda Carter is a Lecturer (Academic Education Pathway) in Philosophy at King’s College London. Her
primary research interest concerns social equality and its relationship with dementia."

Philosophy.
Not medicine in any way, not biology, not even sociology.
I am not saying that what the author believes is not grounded in reality, but she is not the person who prescribes HRT, performs surgery, or is actually on the frontline of mental health. 
The article is just her opinion and her dissertation on the subject. It may resonate with you, but articles like this come for a penny a dozen and from all sides of the political spectrum. You better not go looking for similar articles coming from the more conservative philosophers.

Regardless, my main point was about language and, yes, you have attacked people in multiple occasions when they wrote, not to you, something that you didn't like or that you found somehow offensive towards you or someone else.
Last thing: I just double-checked and the forum still has the subtitle it always had: "Breast growth for genetic males". Newcomers will read that and assume that people in this forum are genetic males, whether you like the definition or not. I have nothing against having all sort of people, males, females, transgender, intersex, and anything in between, contributing to this forum. I believe that if a new user writes to other under the assumption that this is a forum for "breast growth for genetic males" , it's not the best if the first thing that happen is that someone jumps at their throat.

A repeat myself: it's through education and understanding that this community can thrive, not with attacks based on terminology in the English language from people with zero experience and exposure to these topics.

[Manue]

I don't remember things that happened on Discord years ago and I don't care to remember either, but thanks for the reminder... I'm not a shining beacon of perfection and I must have been really pissed off about something to misgender you. 

You found dirt on me. I'm a horrible pot for calling kettle black. It must be a moment which absolutely condemns me forever. 

EDIT:
Manue btw, why are you trying to make this personal? Why are you trying to make me look bad? Some old grudge from Discord from several years ago? If this thread gets personal, I'm going to stop posting, ask Eve to lock the thread and cocentrate on other topics or do something else entirely. I will not go into some ridiculously naive schoolyard bulluying scenario where people start to dig details and old stuff to make things personal, or start name calling or what ever.... I don't have energy or time for that. I rather do some boring ass adult shit than go into flame wars with asshats.

HN, this wasn’t personal. You framed this thread around misgendering and “safe space,” so I brought up a relevant prior interaction where you misgendered me and then banned me from your Discord after a disagreement.

Your response doesn’t include an apology, and instead dismisses it as “dirt,” questions my motives, calls people “asshats,” and threatens to ask for the thread to be locked. That’s exactly the kind of selective accountability this thread is supposedly addressing.

For completeness: after the ban, third parties contacted me urging me to apologize for stating my position after answering your question. I’m not re-litigating Discord. I’m pointing out consistency: if misgendering is unacceptable here, it should be unacceptable when you do it too.

[flamesabers]

@Manue-I'm sorry to hear about your experience of being misgendered and banned on Discord. 

@prostatenipple-Agreed. We need to protect/help each other in this community.

@Shirazmn-Good analysis with the pdf. I think you make a valuable point about language. The title of the forum has always been "breast growth for genetic males" even when it was previously a sub-forum of Breast Nexus. I don't think the forum's title is a transphobic dog-whistle. I see the title solely as a clear distinguisher from the other audience (genetic females) of Breast Nexus.