[tomi66]

@nephele keep in mind that BreasNexum (with an M) exists because genetic women wanted a space of their own (BreastNexus with an S). I am not sure how they see intersex people there, but I am sure that when BreastNexum branched off it was because GGs had problems with non GGs being around..........
...............
I disagree with those saying that things are getting worse. I have seen proper fights on this forum that I hope will never repeat themselves, and I think that right now this forum is living a renaissance thanks to high participation from a large number of active users.

Agreed

[Heaven's Night]

@nephele keep in mind that BreasNexum (with an M) exists because genetic women wanted a space of their own (BreastNexus with an S). I am not sure how they see intersex people there, but I am sure that when BreastNexum branched off it was because GGs had problems with non GGs being around.

I have been insulted many times here because I wasn't trans enough for some (I am not trans, btw). I grew a pair (of boobs, obvs) and I moved on. I learned from real life the golden rule that "It's not always about you", so if I read something that could potentially occasionally incidentally marginally offend someone, I don't necessarily have the duty to step in if it doesn't really offend me. There are a lot of users here, new and old, from all walks of life, which is beautiful. We walk a grey area between cis, trans, bi, nb, etc... and it's not easy to gauge the language in a way that is always inclusive. Not everyone here is an accomplished writer and many don't even have English as a first language.
I disagree with those saying that things are getting worse. I have seen proper fights on this forum that I hope will never repeat themselves, and I think that right now this forum is living a renaissance thanks to high participation from a large number of active users.

Nexus is not welcoming. There's two reasons, its quite inactive(Was when I last visited) and they're just simply not very welcoming over there. Its the cis people problem, even most who are surface level "accepting" are not, they're tolerant and only to an extent. They tolerate and avoid. Genetic woman, biological woman, these are kinda dog whistles for excluding anything but cis sex people. 

I'm just as "genetic and biological" as anybody else. we're not non human, we're not cyborgs or animals or fungi or silicon based space aliens from zeta reticuli. My sex characteristics obey same rules of genetics and biology as all other women have, and all people for that matter. Cyborgs and silicon based aliens likely do not.

Complete invalidation of non cis sex life experience and identity and medical facts with "sex transition is impossible" is not marginally offensive, its indeed VERY offensive stance. And that attitude that you don't need to stop in when its not about you, that's exactly why all kinds of bigots are able to step on minorities all the time. Obviously, choose your battles, but if you decide to not care about noncis sex people who are somehow part of the same circles you're at, don't expect anyone to stand by you if you get in trouble either. Most cis sex allies are exactly like that, they allow all evils to happen as long as its not about themselves. This same thing happens with all minorities so its a lovely equal treatment for all of us. 

Trans- and intersex women of binary identities do not walk on any grey area. We are women, through and through. The language question is quite easy, not allow transphobia and misogyny any space at all. Zero tolerance to bs and lies, facts and even rude awakenings and hard lessons to those who refuse to get it. And forgetting about the ones who are beyond learning a goddamn thing. English isn't my first language either. Nothing's stopping people from learning it except ignorance and laziness or sheer stuopidity. None of which are on short supply.

Yea, there's plenty of newbies showing up which is awesome. But if they pull up some dumb fuckery with transphobic lies, I will step in and point at it and I'll make a fuzz about it, I'll "escalate" as much as is needed to weed it out and perhaps teach a thing or few to those willing to broaden heir horizons of what it is to be a human.

As to be a non cis sex person is very much part of the human condition. And this forum has to live by it. I want to keep the conduit open here for all closeted trans women and non binary people who are reading this. I know they're here, so many have come and gone and I want them to have a place to speak their minds and figure out how boobs work. 

[Curvyguy]

Absolutely agreed you shouldn't be forbidden from being women just because due to circumstances of your birth things didn't fit the cis type? 

I've met with many trans people over the years male and female and your all as human as anyone and in some areas I'd say more understanding of the human condition and those of us that don't fit directly into the cis hetro space. 

Its important places like this exist so that anyone who has just come out as trans , gender fluid, intersex or non binary have an accepting place to be where they can be themselves without judgement or bias. And cis guys who want to have there own breasts for that matter everyone is welcome here!

Long may it continue i say! We are all human so we should just let people be themselves after all.

[nephele]

genetic males, genetic females, i bet sydney sweeney would love it here. with eugenics and pseudo-scientific sexism explaining how some people are more relevant than others and it's all in the genes. 

i thought the reason for the term "genetic males" was that someone didn't really know how to address AMAB people and just wrote something crappy and everyone just went with it, but i didn't think it's actually some kind of a code here, you have to be in some sort of a group that's determined by your genes, to be taken seriously? like there's a huge fucking difference between assigned male at birth, and whatever the hell is going on inside your body. an infinite difference. no two human beings on this planet are 100% alike, and everyone's biology is unique.

also i would wager most of the people here haven't conducted thorough genetic testing to actually determine their genetic makeup. so i'd guess many who think they are "genetic males" are just assuming things.

but when it comes to inane shit like "oh this forum is pretty good, there's no X/Y/Z here, you should look the other way when you see others bullied, if it isn't aimed directly at you, let it happen" - i'm fuming. i'm fucking furious at attitudes like that. that kinda thinking is what enables all the horrible atrocities in the world. "it doesn't concern me, let everyone else suffer". FUCK. YOU.

@flamesabers, Heaven's Night posted the answer to your question in the OP already, very plainly:

Transmisia and intermisia have no place on this forum. Do not let it slip. Do not allow it. 

[Heaven's Night]

Its annoying, all these "genetic" and "biological" kinda words are transphobic dogwhistles, they keep getting repeated as a soft means to othering us non cis sex ones and its never a positive othering either.The whole binary of sex is based on two things, oversimplifying biology which is inherintly complex. Most people don't even know the basics. (I say I know the basics, I'm not an expert on anything else except what my body does and even with that there's thing I don't yet know.) And second is patriarchal classing of women into usefull and useless categories.

Also, its silly because we all carry the genetics to express both male and female sex chracteristics, development of which can be reversed and changed way more than these "genetics and biology" experts want to admit.   I think its stupid that the forum name has the "genetic" in it to this day... I could be changed to AMAB and that would solve the entire thing. I understand the forum split however, the reason was not trans women, nor intersex women, nor any non cis sex people, it was men.

Good point, the armchair geneticist-biologist-know-it-all always goes on and on about chromosomes for example, which have zero to do with our daily lives. Setup which most people can guesstimate but cannot know without testing. Remember the awkwardness that was testing chromos for sports categorisation which then was later dropped? The reason it was dropped was that there were too many deviations found whichsuddenly made too many men to know they're actually intersex. This is where it makes so much sense that a "man" and a "woman" are social categories, not biological ones. Someone like me isn't funny either, an intersex body is in some in a true in between state... So if people are categorised by biology alone, I fit in nowhere. And gazillion others don't either.

And that last point, exactly. Zero care its its about somebody else. It pisses me off so much. Ladder pulling of highest order. Especially infuraiting when its coming from LGB person who should be part of the same community and face some of the same battles. There's been a ton of these Quislings showing up in last +1 year.

[Shirazmn]

Hmmm... I'm all up for labels as long as they carry scientific meaning, and I strongly believe that nobody should be offendedby a label if it's only used with its scientific meaning. In a forum like this, where we talk about hormones, phytohormones, aromatase, etc... I think it's extremely important that we use some classification to differentiate between different biological sexes.

There are a lot of people who are intersex, some say up to 7% of the population, but the vast majority still falls within the standard XY and XX genotypes. Those are the GM and GG (should be GM (genetic males) and GF (genetic females), to be honest, since Girl is a social term that has to do with gender and not with gender and not with biology). The AMAB and AFAB definitions only tell part of the story because intersex pople are usually assigned M or F at birth anyway.

One can hold the grudge against nature, against a god, against their parents... as much as they want for their genetic markup, but that is there to stay, and it will drive the physiological responses to whatever is injected, eaten, and quite possibly felt for the rest of their life. One may not like it, but it is important. I seriously struggle to understand how one person, in a forum like this or in a medical environment, can get angry against clinical facts. It's as if a post-SRS transex woman ( <- term used intentionally instead of "transgender" to highlight the post-srs surgery) got angry when their doctor suggested a prostate screening to check for signs of cancer. Imagine the absurdity of this person going "How dare you say that I have a prostate? I am a woman!". One thing is to be intentionally misgendered, one thing is to deny the obvious effects that one's genetic markup has on their own body.

Why is it important to use these labels here? Because you can go on BreastNexuS and tell GFs to use fenugreek to increase bust size from day one, but you can't do the same here, even if a user of this forum identifies as female from day one. Their physiology is just not the same. I think that we should all see this as a safe space where we give for taken that a reference to our genetic sex is not an insult but a way to level the ground to understand how to get similar results. It's easy to identify the people who openly insult others, but it's important that the communication remains open and frank.

And, Lara, I disagree on the "English isn't my first language either. Nothing's stopping people from learning it except ignorance and laziness or sheer stuopidity. None of which are on short supply.". Not knowing English is not a matter of being lazy or stupid. It is a matter of not knowing it well, or not realising that we don't know it well enough. While everyone knows the basic "Hello", not everyone understands the nuances of "allyship language". If we want this community to thrive and help as many people as possible finding their way through breast growth and potentially gender discovery, we can't exclude those who try dipping their feet into this world for the first time. 
I love when someone posts something like "Long time lurker, I never had the courage to post, but I want to introduce myself...". I remember the euphoria that came from finally being able to speak about my inclinations and my desire for breasts. I know how important my first post on BN has been for my personal growth. And I would really love that people feel free to post here without having to worry that someone will read their post, find something unintentionally offensive, and start attacking them.

And, to answer @flamesabers question, which is something I rarely do, we can KEEP, not MAKE, BN a safe and inclusive space by guiding instead of fighting or insulting those users who have just begun their journey and that trusted this space enough to open themselves to the world. Confrontation doesn't help. (I am not saying that Flamesabers did it, but I am sure that threads like this one could discourage newcomers from posting)

[Heaven's Night]

Shirazmn

---

Hmmm... I'm all up for labels as long as they carry scientific meaning, and I strongly believe that nobody should be offendedby a label if it's only used with its scientific meaning. In a forum like this, where we talk about hormones, phytohormones, aromatase, etc... I think it's extremely important that we use some classification to differentiate between different biological sexes.

Yea, its all cool when its appropriate, however all random bullshit is being thrown around the forum from time to time and it has nothing to do with labelling sex characteristics. Note the reason why I started this thread and what initated the need to, it wasn't about labels. 

There are a lot of people who are intersex, some say up to 7% of the population, but the vast majority still falls within the standard XY and XX genotypes. Those are the GM and GG (should be GM (genetic males) and GF (genetic females), to be honest, since Girl is a social term that has to do with gender and not with gender and not with biology). The AMAB and AFAB definitions only tell part of the story because intersex pople are usually assigned M or F at birth anyway.

Yes there are and lot of them don't even know it as it doesn't always show outwards. A glance decided what my id said for thirty seix years, it was a mistake that I've paid dearly for to fix. 

One can hold the grudge against nature, against a god, against their parents... as much as they want for their genetic markup, but that is there to stay, and it will drive the physiological responses to whatever is injected, eaten, and quite possibly felt for the rest of their life. One may not like it, but it is important. I seriously struggle to understand how one person, in a forum like this or in a medical environment, can get angry against clinical facts. It's as if a post-SRS transex woman ( <- term used intentionally instead of "transgender" to highlight the post-srs surgery) got angry when their doctor suggested a prostate screening to check for signs of cancer. Imagine the absurdity of this person going "How dare you say that I have a prostate? I am a woman!". One thing is to be intentionally misgendered, one thing is to deny the obvious effects that one's genetic markup has on their own body.

Who has a grudge against what? What has that to do with this thread? Who's getting angry at stuff which is a business of their endocrinologist, gynecologist or urologist or surgeon? No one has. Someone who does isn't being very smart. Did you know that trans women get a very interesting diceroll with cancer risks? Prostate cancer risk lowers dramatically after enough tim on HRT while breast cancer risk elevates somewhat. Regardless of what activated Y chromo set in motion during pregnancy, and the physicalchanges puberty did, it doesn't change the fact that fully medically transitioned trans woman has very literally changed her sex charcteristics to the extent its currently possible. Its amazing what medical science can do. Btw, I don't know any trans woman who's in denial about their bodies, they're more aware than any cis normie will ever be. But that will never make any of them a man, getting prostate screened doesn't change that. Or even being non op. 

The denial and grudge I see is cis peopel trying to deny non cis people being who they are, and they use fuckton of crutches for the mental acrobatics needed for it. And they use biology to deny our existence and any excuses there are to say that we're not who we are. That is the problem, not physical traits ot sex characteristics or what thier doctors discuss and do with their healthcare. 

Why is it important to use these labels here? Because you can go on BreastNexuS and tell GFs to use fenugreek to increase bust size from day one, but you can't do the same here, even if a user of this forum identifies as female from day one. Their physiology is just not the same. I think that we should all see this as a safe space where we give for taken that a reference to our genetic sex is not an insult but a way to level the ground to understand how to get similar results. It's easy to identify the people who openly insult others, but it's important that the communication remains open and frank.

Yea and male sex characteristics can be changed with HRT and surgery... Who was insulted? I was insulted by transphobic false statements about sex characteristics being immutable. They're not, that's what transition does, it changes sex characteristics. No one is denying the fact that dudes, trans women and some intersex people need adifferent approach to growing boobs than a cis woman does. 

The problem is pushing labels falsely and claiming shit that's obviously transphobica and a lie. I'll repeat this as many times as needed to get it accross. No one was pissed off about labels. Me and Nephele just said it out loud that these "scientific" labels and stuff are often used as a trasphobic dogwhistle to invalidate our existence between the lines while appearing to be all about human biology and science. 

Funny, its medical science invented for cis people which is making a sex transitions possible. Its medical science hacking genetics we all carry within ourselves, the expression of which differs from person to person. 

What I find insulting is when a snail looks at a butterfly and calls it a caterpillar, regardless of butterfly obviously being a butterfly. I'm sure you've seen the meme. 

And, Lara, I disagree on the "English isn't my first language either. Nothing's stopping people from learning it except ignorance and laziness or sheer stuopidity. None of which are on short supply.". Not knowing English is not a matter of being lazy or stupid. It is a matter of not knowing it well, or not realising that we don't know it well enough. While everyone knows the basic "Hello", not everyone understands the nuances of "allyship language". If we want this community to thrive and help as many people as possible finding their way through breast growth and potentially gender discovery, we can't exclude those who try dipping their feet into this world for the first time. 
I love when someone posts something like "Long time lurker, I never had the courage to post, but I want to introduce myself...". I remember the euphoria that came from finally being able to speak about my inclinations and my desire for breasts. I know how important my first post on BN has been for my personal growth. And I would really love that people feel free to post here without having to worry that someone will read their post, find something unintentionally offensive, and start attacking them.

Simplest language which is all over everywhere online. Most people don't have difficulty learnig it if they want to. 

Attacking them? I didn't attack the poster, I shouted like a fucking nasty feminist banshee about false statements which are not just bs, but also transphobic. I will not be persuaded from not doing so in the future too. This is one of the few things on which I will not compromise, it wont fly. I wont allow it. This definitely is a hill I'm willing to die upon. 

And, to answer @flamesabers question, which is something I rarely do, we can KEEP, not MAKE, BN a safe and inclusive space by guiding instead of fighting or insulting those users who have just begun their journey and that trusted this space enough to open themselves to the world. Confrontation doesn't help. (I am not saying that Flamesabers did it, but I am sure that threads like this one could discourage newcomers from posting)

Transphobia will be confronted promptly and without hesitation. If this makes some people not post, then I don't think we want such people here to begin with. Transphobic bigoted men should confront their own biases and attitudes before blurting out every possible piece of bullshit they can come up with. First grow up, then start posting. 

I'm absolutely 100% done with this thread btw. I'm exhausted as fuck as I'm super busy with life and I have no clue where the hell I find energy to post this kinda stuff, but things that have to be said, have to be said.

I've been busy today creating a new logo for one of my bands. Takes ages to get it done.

[flamesabers]

I have a lot of feelings about the usage of labels. In this politically charged environment, such labels I think are used to denigrate/deny trans people's identities and lived experiences. One only has to look at any posting regarding trans people on a mainstream social media platform to find a plethora of transphobic insults. I try to avoid such cesspools of hate against trans people. On the other hand, I am self-aware of my body and understand I may need medical exams or other procedures for things that do not correlate with my gender. (I am trans after all).

In regards to labels for BN, I'm in agreement with Shirazmn. NBE advice can be very different depending on the forum, and the same can also be said for HRT as well. My injectable E levels for HRT is much higher than the typical prescribed HRT dosage for a post-menopausal cis woman. I also highly doubt such cis women would need to be on a GnRH agonist to lower testosterone levels like I am. I fully agree that references to genetic sex on BN should not be used as an insult on BN.

I think Shirazmn makes an excellent point about the self-courage it takes to post on BN for the first time. It doesn't matter whether the person is seeking solely breast growth, or whether they're looking for ways to transition. It's hard to come out of the closet, no matter if it's due to fears of rejection or being spitted. I feel the last thing we would want is for a newcomer to hesitate with posting out of fear of saying something that might be unintentionally offensive to someone else.

@Shirazmn, thank you for your feedback to my post. I think you make a lot of sense by saying that guiding (as opposed to fighting or confrontation) should be the answer to keeping BN a safe space.

[Heaven's Night]

Yes, this!! This is exactly the whole fucking point about why so called "scientific" labels are messed up, they're dogwhistles, they're used all the time for othering trans people and for invalidating our existence and the BIOLOGICAL reality of sex transitions. Randos using those loaded terms to invalidate us has nothing, zero, nada, to do with how we deal with medical care when in private talking with our doctors, that's nobody's fucking business anyway! 

This is how the "genetic/biological" etc. terms should be used, in a medical context, as in between doctor, patient and healthcare staff involved. Context changes the whole thing and all this stuff is being massive misused by transphobic bigots who have an agenda to crumble minority rights and women's rights in general!

Alice, tell me, is it your good nature or naivety that makes you think that every misogynistic, transphobic and simply false statement random cis hetero men do on this forum, is unintentionally offensive? Has it crossed your mind that a lot of cis hetero men are transphobic as fuck and many of them are misogynistic and sexist as fuck? You've been here longer than I, you should be aware that such behaviour is a repeating pattern which keeps popping up time and again, some times with long breaks but its there. More is said between the lines.

Safe spaces remain safe when transmisia, intermisia and misogyny are not allowed any foothold what so ever. 

[flamesabers]

Hello Heaven's Night,

To answer your question, I don't think I'm being naive. Does it mean it's my good nature then? Surely it doesn't have to be either/or? I'll try to elaborate further:

I enjoy being on BN. Maybe that in of itself is a bias compared to when I'm scrolling through the mainstream social media sites? I've found the community here to be very supportive of me before I transitioned and since. I've made two very close friendships (whom I talk to almost daily) through BN. The same can't be said for other sites I post in.

I don't read every post on BN, and there have been periods of time I've not visited BN. For all I know there could be an "underworld" of bigotry on BN I'm simply not familiar with. Or maybe on the other hand, it could be I strive to give people (particularly newcomers)  the benefit of a doubt (especially on a forum I've been on for 13+ years). I would agree IRL there are a lot of transphobes, otherwise the political climate (especially the USA) would be very different then it currently is. I see BN being different as it's a very niche community. It's hard for me to recognize how a dyed-in-the-wool transphobic man would also be on a site asking about how to grow his own breasts? Could you imagine the backlash this guy would face if his (transphobic) family/friends found out?

If someone is posting in good faith, I try to give them a benefit of a doubt. For all I know, the person might have had zero real-life interactions with a trans person and is practically clueless about offensive terminology for trans people. I think the difference between a troll/bigot and someone who is not, is the latter is open-minded enough to amend their ways and try not to hurt others (again). Trolls/bigots on the other hand, double-down and will never apologize or change.

With all of that said, I think the best defense against the trolls/bigots on this site is to report and block them. There's a very common saying of "don't feed the trolls." I think in our case, this would translate to "don't give them the satisfaction of knowing they have incensed us by their bigotry." In other words, good moderation would quickly deal with the offensive posting. If there are issues with the timeliness/effectiveness of moderation on the forum, I think that's another issue that needs to be addressed.

I feel like this needs to be said, but I'm not trying to excuse bad behavior here. If someone doesn't want to play by the rules, by all means they should be warned/kicked/banned or whatever. I think it should be noted that last I checked, transphobia wasn't explicitly mentioned in the terms of service. Perhaps it's time to incorporate in the rules that transphobia doesn't have a place here?